Ep 39: Conversations with a Death Doula

Prepare to surprise yourself in your own ability to embrace death, grief, and aging. Through this rich interview with end of life doula, Traci Arielli. Honor yourself, celebrate your strength, empower your transformation with your Yin-care®. This is the Yin-care® podcast, and I’m your host, Margaret Jacobson, the Mother Rising.

All right. Hello everyone and welcome back to Your Womb Wisdom. I’m Margaret Jacobson, the Mother Rising, and this is the Yin-care® podcast. You’ve been watching the first few episodes we’ve been rolling out, and you probably know that I reference a great challenge that I had in 2023 actually, when we were recording the first few episodes of what I’m terming as season two of the Yin-care® podcast.

And that was that my mom, who was 84 at the time, became horribly sick. As an only child, I was incredibly worried that this had the potential of spiraling very quickly, potentially into death. And at the same time or right around there, my daughter Carly, who you’ve heard in the episode 36, which was Conversations with Carly, our new series, she had been watching a Chris Hemsworth series done by National Geographic called Limitless.

And in one of the later episodes, he and his wife were exploring aging, and he actually met with a death doula. And I had never heard of a death doula, but the conversations that they had and what she walked him through were fascinating to me, and it seemed just like a no brainer. If you can have someone like a birth doula, why would you not consider a death doula?

So when this happened with my mom, I was at my parents’ house in Los Gatos, California, which is the South San Francisco Bay area. I just, was in desperation and looked online and just searched under death doulas. And I found our guest that is going to be with us today, Traci Arielli, whom I’ve been working with ever since, and I’m thrilled to share her with you.

I’m also thrilled to share with you that my mom is actually doing quite well, and so the conversations that I continue to have with Traci are much different now, but important nonetheless. So Traci is an end of life doula and grief specialist. And Traci’s journey began with a deeply personal loss, the suicide of her cousin and experiencing her family and community struggle to grieve sparked a desire in her to change the narrative around grief and death.

And through Traci’s work and her podcast, yes, she has her own podcast, “Comforting Closure Conversations with a Death Doula.” Traci helps individuals and communities engage in those difficult conversations, ensuring a better quality of life in their final moments. And when Traci is not supporting others, you’ll find her practicing yoga, hiking with her husband, or losing herself in a mystery novel and I believe cycling, which, she loves to do.

So. Without further ado, I would like to welcome Traci Arielli to the Yin-care® Podcast. Welcome Traci. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. Oh my gosh. I’m so excited to have you here. It’s so fun because we’ve developed such a good friendship at the same time, so it’s extra special.

Thank you. Yep. So, okay. What I was hoping that, I wanted to, you know, we’ll get back to how you’ve helped me personally with my parents, but why don’t we start by you just sharing with everybody what it means to you to be an end of life doula and why you, prefer the term End of Life Doula to Death Doula. Yes. Well, as, as you said, I got into this because I, there was a death in my family. My cousin, who I was close with, died of suicide. It was a very big surprise, and I, my family, you know, when you’re dealing with a loss by suicide, it is very difficult. All, all death is difficult. But, my family didn’t grieve well.

And our community, of course had their challenges, uh, with it also. And I saw this and I said, okay, I, I want to do something about it. And then, I got the chance. I turned 50 and decided that I wanted to take the chance. And, I used to be in tech, so I went from tech to this. And I have never looked back.

When I started this career, everyone was using the term Death Doula. End of Life Doula wasn’t, as prevalent. And still, I don’t think is as prevalent. But I have a belief that when I work with a family and I work with people, it is not about the death, it is about the quality of life in that last stage of their life, which of course ends when they pass away, ends when they die.

So I really try to focus on what that quality of life is, what is important to a person and their loved ones. What is important in their life right now? Because how you live is how you’re going to die. So, it is really just looking at those values and looking at what brings happiness right now and trying to, ensure that that continues until the very end.

Right, absolutely. And it makes me, I mean I was gonna ask this question later, but it makes me think. Do you think, like right off the bat, when you’re talking about quality of life and you’re looking at the end of life. Do you think that immediately, what people’s perception of what happens after death immediately sort of comes into play in the conversations?

Or are they able to focus on just the quality of life? Does that come up? Does the after death part ever come up? I am sure it does, or. The after life portion does come up when I’m companioning, when I’m sitting with a person, when they’re really terminally ill. I work with people from all different phases.

I love to get in early where we could talk about, advanced directives and talk about that type of thing. The planning, when I first meet with people, it’s usually, about the planning and the death itself. I think people are less concerned initially. Right. About the afterlife. Right. Than the actual death because there’s so much fear around the actual death.

Yeah. And the logistics of it. I mean, which lends me to really the first thing that we did together when my, when I contacted you, my mom was just really ill at home. She hadn’t gone to the hospital yet and we didn’t know that she was quietly developing an infection that turned into sepsis that landed her in the hospital for that time.

And then a series of things, right? Oh my God. I just hate to even think back to that time because it was such a nightmare, for everybody. But anyway, the first thing we did was I called you, we did like a quick conversation on the phone, which you were so great, and I was like, oh, this is gonna be, I just felt like this like relief in my system of, because the other piece being an only child, being that I live in Wyoming and like to not feel like there was someone locally that could hold a presence around everything that we were going through, you know? And so when you came over, I’m trying to remember what that first document was that we went through. And of course I was thinking about this the other day and planning our thing, and I’m like, we never went through that with my dad.

And he’s the perfect person for us to talk about because he was so uncomfortable with the conversations we were having. So share with everybody what we were going through.

Yeah. So we first went through some of the advanced directive work, but even before that, we went through your mom’s values, her life, her, and this was before because, so, you know, after that we did a life review, and that’s totally separate. Totally different. But we went over her values and what she really enjoyed.

And I think that any conversation, even when you’re talking about an advanced directive, and for those that don’t know what that is, it is, the healthcare advanced directive is where you document what you want your healthcare preferences to be. Do you want CPR? Do you want a whole host of other things.

But even before you start that conversation, you gotta talk about your values, what you really enjoy in life. And so we had that conversation with your mom and a whole bunch of her stories came up. That’s right and really informed what she wanted moving forward. We also did talk about other things such as, you know, and this wasn’t really specific to her because you have your father, and your father has this knowledge also, but we did talk about what she wanted as far as disposition.

Any utilities, you know, make sure your father has all those passwords and all the account numbers. And that was important and is important even if you have a spouse, because sometimes you only have one spouse taking care of that kind of stuff. And, and so that when that spouse passes on, it’s difficult if that’s not documented.

So we went over a whole bunch of things and it was, it turned into a really nice conversation. I remember hearing all of your mothers conversations and hearing all of your mother’s stories. And I know that even you, you’re like, oh, I didn’t know that. I know. So it just, she was great. It turned into something beautiful.

Yeah. She was great at sharing. And yeah, there were some things like you were asking her things like, you know, we were talking about at the end of her life we were asking some very pointed questions, like if things get to the end. Yeah. If there was. So what things kind of brought her comfort and you were suggesting like nature and she was saying the ocean and would ocean sounds be nice?

And what smells did she like? And she like said, bay leaves. And I was like, oh, of course bay leaves are amazing. You know, like things that I wouldn’t have thought of. And here’s my dad, sitting next to her going do we really have to talk about all this? Because this is like, it was, he was feeling like it was a very morbid conversation and really, uncomfortable.

And so that’s why I’m giggling that we haven’t done it with him yet ’cause he’s so much more comfortable now. I think talking about it and making a couple jokes about it, but it’s taken all of this. I feel so blessed that we’ve had such a good amount of time to allow him to relax into just having the conversations because we want it to be this beautiful space that we can just hold and for whatever happens, you know?

Yeah. And we also talk to your parents about what they’ve already seen in way of death. They’ve had friends who’ve passed away, they’ve had family members, their parents that they’ve seen become ill and what that experience was like. And from that we did have that discussion about the environment.

So, you know, when you’re talking, there’s one part of this, the healthcare part of it. Most people don’t know though, that when you go into hospice and you, which in the United States, it’s unfortunate that most people don’t take care of hospice or don’t take advantage of hospice beforehand. Uh, hospice is covered by Medicare.

Can, can we just say like, with it can be a very misleading term when we say go into hospice, because. Yes. That sounds like you’re going somewhere. And it doesn’t necessarily mean that, it means that you’re, you’re technically moved under in a, in a medical like referral, you are now technically approved for hospice care.

That can be at a facility, but it can be at your house. So go ahead and explain a little bit about that. So think of hospice, not as a place, but as a team of people that are helping make sure your quality of life is as good as possible from a pain management and also from a spiritual and an emotional perspective

also, because part of that team is a social worker part of the team. They do have, you know, they do have chaplains. So it is a team of people. And that could be anywhere. And what Medicare covers is that team of people. The medical portion of it ox, you know, you get oxygen, you get, you know, the painkillers.

It’s a whole host, you know, the palliative care. It’s a whole host of things. Medicare doesn’t cover the cost, the place, and that’s why you can have hospice anywhere in your home? I think something like 80% of people that were surveyed want to be at home when they pass away. It could be in an assisted living community.

Many assisted living communities do allow for hospice, and that’s something that you do if you’re looking to move somewhere. You do need to talk to that assisted living facility to make sure that they do accept people from hospice coming in at the end of your life so you don’t have to move out. So, it is, as I said, think of it as a team of people and you can take advantage of that.

Mm-hmm. When the doctors believe that you have six months or less to live. So that is really the defining factor of when you could really take advantage of that. Right. And so you mentioned palliative care and that is another piece that potentially people can take advantage of too, which allows for care to be given continuous.

Not when I say continuously, it doesn’t mean like someone’s there all the time, but you have more access to care that can come into the home. So can you explain the difference between the requirements that you would meet for palliative care then that’s different from hospice? Do you know? Hospice is a type of palliative care.

I mean, they give palliative care in hospice, and that is that care that it really is making you comfortable. If you’re just, if you’re in the hospital and you’re receiving palliative care, there is still life sustaining measures that they are providing where if you’re in hospice, you’re no longer receiving life sustaining measures.

So, as an example, if you’re on dialysis right now, um. You most likely will be taken off dialysis unless that’s not what you’re dying from. And it’s a comfort measure. So, but usually people are taken off of dialysis, because they are not receiving any life sustaining measures. So hospice that’s going away.

Right. Although all those, uh, measures, so the, with hospice also, I’d like to say that it isn’t 24 hours a day that you’re receiving care. The hospice nurse, the hospice team does come in and educate you. So you will help with giving the pain medication. They’re always on call. So if you could phone the hospice if you have a question, but they aren’t going to be there at the beginning of hospice.

When a person is not actively dying, they usually come in a couple days, one to a couple days a week, spend about 45 minutes an hour at a time with you. And then when you become closer to death, they might be there every other day. Maybe you are lucky enough to have someone come in every day for about an hour, but they cannot, they have so many people to visit that unfortunately they can’t stay even though they would like to.

And that’s why people utilize End of Life Doulas or Death Doulas because we can be there eight hours, nine hours and really work with the family and educate too. Death is scary. We’re not around it. I’m sure if it was 200 years ago and we saw death every day, we lived on the farm, and we saw mom, grandma, and grandpa pass away, then it won’t be as scary.

But, it’s scary if you don’t know what to expect. Well, exactly, and that’s why I want, it’s such an important conversation, I feel like, for me on this podcast with, with the audience, with all of you guys out there listening, because the Yin-care® podcast is really about people taking baby steps to improving their health, in what I call health creation.

And so in order to, for me, it’s always been this, I, I’ve never been afraid of death. It’s never been something that was, to me, like spiritually, it’s a transition time. And so I’m not, I because of that view it, it doesn’t seem, and because of my yoga practice and my spiritual practice, like to me, I can really, I’ve had a physical, biological sense of what it would feel like cellularly to leave the body.

And so that doesn’t scare me. However, I do believe that we have cut ourselves short in our system, our medical system of, shortening the not saying. Not blaming anybody for, for this in particular. ’cause I don’t believe it’s just a healthcare system, but that the lives of people are shortened to a huge degree that there is a huge potentiality for us to live much longer lives.

And so knowing that, that’s where I come with let’s get, well everybody, let’s start to, you know, make these daily choices with the end product being that you get to a place where leaving the body is easier. We’re not stuck in a medical system. And so part of the big reasons for me why, it was so it’s been so important to work with you is that I don’t want my parents in the medical system when they’re leaving. I want this to be at home. And meeting Traci sort of facilitated me going down this deep dive of watching, you know, I watched like a monk die online. I’d listened to all these people talking about death and what, you know, the death rattle and what it’s like, and just like immersing myself in what the actual nitty gritty, messy parts of death might be, so that it wasn’t gonna freak me out.

And so anyway, just having Traci there to facilitate, making sure that we have all of the things in place to stay out of the medical system has just been hugely important.

I also think that looking at death and really understanding what it does, makes you appreciate your life more and helps you be much more present.

I know that with this job, coming, I came from tech, as I said, but coming from tech to here, my view on life has changed so much, so drastically. And the things that are important to me have changed and I’m frankly, much happier. I, the things I value are different. Right. Yeah. I loved, you know, I was going back and listening to some of your, podcasts, and one of them I didn’t realize was there, you did a meditation on being with death.

Yeah. Yeah. And I thought that was so great. Your insights that you got from it were really powerful that you shared. Do you remember what you said? Do you wanna share? Yeah, that was one of the first ones, where I did a meditation, a death meditation, and I saw myself, I was lying down and then I saw myself from above and I saw my body.

But I remember very vividly how hard I was on my body, especially being a woman in our society and how, you know, how much I dislike my body. And I would poke at my stomach and stuff and, and I remember thinking, wow, I was so tough on my body. I was so mean to my body and I really didn’t think it. And it really, pivoted my, my thought process. And so after that, the appreciation for myself and what I have has been much greater. Because of it. It was like a switch. It’s huge. That’s huge. That’s like, I mean, so I’ll try and link that, that meditation so people can go back and, and, kind of walk through the steps of what that was like and maybe follow through, because that I thought was just so smart.

And that’s kind of what, they did in this thing that I had watched with Chris Hemsworth, the Death Doula took him on kind of a, a death meditation. What it was like, I can’t remember exactly what she said. It was really a beautiful episode, by the way, as a side note. I’ll have to watch it.

Thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, yeah, totally. But let’s, if you could share, ’cause some of the logistics, like you were mentioning, like CPR, and a do not resuscitate, and I forget what a pulse stands for, but the, that and the, can, and the, of course, the, advanced healthcare directive. Can you go into some of that and why those things are important for us to discuss and know about ahead of time and plan for?

Yeah, I think, you know, when we’re talking about, you know, there are all different parts of planning for your end of life and one of them is the healthcare directive is what you’re talking about. And that has all that information of do you want CPR, do you want other life sustaining measures? The most important part of that is finding the right person who is going to be your healthcare proxy.

And you should have two people. Mm-hmm. Not one. You should name two people. And I think that most healthcare directives, are the advanced directives are leave space for three. And I’m going into some of the nitty gritty here. People do always ask me, where can I find an advanced directive to fill out?

I love the arp their, their website because they do have a link and it links to all of the state’s, advanced directives, and it’s just really convenient and they do a great job. So, the most important part to me is having the healthcare proxies that understand your values, and that means having discussions with them.

And the reason why it’s so important is because it’s great that you have a piece of paper, uh, it’s a, you know, three pages that says what you want, but there are so many situations that aren’t called out. And then you add into that you’re going to family members that might have their own beliefs and might sway the medical team.

So it’s really important to have this discussion with your advanced care proxies. You need to think about your values. I always start off with, as I’ve said before, personal values. What they want, and start off with that discussion and then have that inform what is in those healthcare advantage, advanced directives.

And as an example, a couple weeks ago, I had a two-parter on my podcast where a friend of ours who is also a death doula. She interviewed me on my advanced directive and I listened to it. It was so great. It, it was amazing. They were both perfect. Yeah. And so, and you, you could see the real nitty gritty stuff that we’re talking about.

But, you know, some of the things that were important to me, I’m really active, so for me to say I’m going to spend the rest of my life in a bed is not gonna work for me. It’s just not going to work for me. At one point we also talked about things that I wanted, I was like, listen, Orin, you make sure I’m bathed every day and you make sure that I’m clean shaven.

I love that. It was so funny. Like, I can’t, you’re like, I can’t believe I’m saying this on like, but you’ve, you’re gonna edit this up. That’s one of your things. ’cause I’ve heard you say it more than once. Uh, yeah. That is one of my things. So anyways, so having those really funny conversations. Mm-hmm.

But when you look at the healthcare and that, that takes, and as I said, informs, you know, informs you, but there are other things. Like everyone, when we talk about CPR, we have been conditioned to believe it is like what we see on TV or the movies, right? The person gets CPR, they stop breathing, they get CPR and then they wake up and they’re fine.

But the reality is, even with younger people, that the majority of people that get CPR and when I mean majority, I mean, in the 90 percentile and above, their sternums are going to break. They’re not just pressing down lightly. It is, you know, one to three inches that they really, the people who are doing CPR have to really work at it.

Yeah. And as a person in their fifties. Personally, I would get CPR. I’m still in my fifties, but when you start looking at people who are in their seventies, eighties, nineties, the likelihood that even if you survive CPR, you’re going to walk out of the hospital is minimal. It is only between seven and something like 17% depending on which study.

But these numbers have been consistent in the studies that they’ve done since the 1970s through today. When they do studies, it is, and that’s because, yeah, person’s a little bit older, but there could be brain damage mm-hmm from lack of oxygen. There could be a whole number of factors. You were saying like too, you might end up on a ventilator.

Yes. You would. You people, when you’re older and you’re. You know, your sternum is broken, right after they put you on a ventilator. Yeah. So that will happen. And it was really interesting on my podcast, I’ve talked about my father who does not, who was like, your father does not like talking about death.

He is really amazing, but he honestly believed that he would not die, that technology would be at the point that it would extend his life. And he actually believed this from the 19, like, I remember when we were a kid, we talked about it, you know, so this is something he always believed that technology would be at the point where he wouldn’t pass away.

Oh my God. And or his life would be extended. Yeah. And, he’s also very claustrophobic and he had a, uh, major stroke, or not major stroke. He had a stroke. He’s fine now. And we were in the emergency room and one of the doctors came in and said, I need to ask you, do you want CPR and my father’s, yeah, I want CPR.

You keep doing it again and again. You just wake me up, you keep me alive. And I said, well, dad, dad, wait a minute. You’re claustrophobic here. I turned to the doctor and I asked. I said, doctor, what’s the likelihood that you’re going to break a sternum and have to put him on a ventilator? Now, my father was in a large room and could not even deal with being in a large room in the hospital.

So you can only imagine how he would be on a ventilator, right? I mean, yeah. But you, if he woke up, right. And, so the doctor said, yeah, that’s gonna happen. So these conversations. It’s really hard to get off. It’s really, I mean, I know just because my daughter, Carly had, when she was 20 months, 22 months old, had a pneumonia that took her into the hospital and it was awful.

I mean, it was just like, it was terrible. But anyway, she was on a ventilator for a while and her dad tried to, he convinced, I left for a little bit and he convinced the, you know, the staff to take her off of it because it was bothering him. But she wasn’t ready. She wasn’t, she was in so much pain ’cause they had to mm-hmm. They had had to do this surgery, to go in and scrape all this gunk off of her. I can’t remember if it was on the lungs or in the interstitial parts of the lungs somewhere. And so she was incredibly sore, you know, and stuff. So she couldn’t, it was helping it was there for a reason.

But anyway, it does take time to get yourself on and off of those things and getting it in and out. I mean, it’s not, it’s not a nice process. It’s brutal. And you also have to think about some of the other questions are, food, you know, are those other life sustaining measures such as feeding tubes and hydration?

And we’re, I, you know, where I see that really mattering is when you are actively dying or in your stage where your body’s shutting down. It doesn’t want the food, it doesn’t want the, and we’re not talking about, oh, you get into a car accident and it’s going to be temporary. What I’m talking about now is, you’re getting older, your body, you might have kidney disease, you might have, something else that is destabilizing your body, but your body’s shutting down.

Mm-hmm. And you are dying, but your body’s shutting down. I see this a lot with people who have, dementia, right. And who, don’t want to eat and they put them on a feeding tube. And especially with dementia, the death journey, that end stage really is when you stop eating and drinking, the body doesn’t want it anymore.

And that’s your body’s way of saying, I’m no longer functioning, my brain’s not functioning, or, you know, my body, uh, my organs aren’t functioning anymore. So when you do something like you are providing nutrition, doing the, the, you know, the having the tubes implanted and, and being fed via tube or hydration, that has nowhere to go, right?

That, that life sustaining, that has no place to go. So your body, it actually causes issues, you start to swell up. I know with the hydration sometimes it goes into the lungs and then you can’t breathe. So it’s really, our bodies are really smart. Mm-hmm. They know how to die and so we just have to be willing to listen to them.

Yeah. Another thing that you have to think about, and I always ask is, what happens if you can no longer your brain? You know, your brain’s not working anymore. Mm-hmm. What happens if you get into an accident or you are, you can’t breathe for a number of minutes and you have brain damage. What does life look for you then?

Do you want that? And so that’s another conversation that you need to have. And then lastly, of course, you could even talk about some of the values around medical aid and dying, which is legal in, I think 11 states now. Don’t quote me on that. No, I was listening to that interview you did too. And that I have real mixed feelings about personally. Like, I mean, I, on the one hand feel like I totally understand how that can be helpful, especially if you’re terminal and suffering. It’s not that I don’t understand that the problem that I have with it is that there should be no.

There should be no medical incentive. So I just don’t, I don’t feel totally comfortable understanding what a doctor or what the health plan or who is getting the funding for the actual pharmaceuticals that are being used. And is there a, is there any reason why a doctor would be incentivized to do that?

Like I just I have to feel confident that there’s no, that that has been severed, you know, that piece of it. But I totally understand the compassionate, like place that it’s coming from, you know? Well, with medical aid and dying, there needs to be two doctors that you get, two different doctors that are interviewed with.

It’s not covered by insurance and it is rather pricely, I think it’s about $4,000 out of pocket. So it is, and some people do have deep issues with it, but that’s not then great, then don’t then medical aid and dying isn’t for you. But I think that everyone should have that autonomy. I know that I have had surgeries before where I’ve been in pain for weeks and the doctor could not figure it out.

And I remember one time I was in such bad pain that I thought, wow, if this is the rest of my life, if this is how it’s going to be, then I do not want to live. I’m in so much pain. And that really went through my head. So I, I think that people have to realize that it’s not suicide. The person is dying, they don’t want to die.

They’re just choosing how, when and how. They’re going to die. Yeah. And it’s not, in all cases too, I know in the United States, people who have dementia, they can’t partake in this. Because you have to be, you have to be able to self-administer, you have to be able to be interviewed and be very cognizant.

It has to be your choice. And so that is another one of the interviews that they do away from the family, just to make sure that that person’s not being pressured at all. That’s good. But it is a very, it’s a hot button for many people. Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting. I, you know, in my, in my perfect, I think I’ve shared this with you before.

My perfect death, not actual death, but like post, like we, I I know that, I think we talked about rituals or ceremonies and also what happens after your death. What’s gonna happen with your body. These are all questions that you help people work through. Yeah. And you know, in fact we, we invited you over for a social call, as I recall, for cupcakes out on the deck at my parents’ house, and it turned into a cremation discussion.

But my perfect scenario is at the final scenes of the movie, captain fantastic. And it’s where they, the mom, like the whole movie is this sort of progression of what, of honoring the mom’s final wishes of what she wanted. She had died and been, had a mental health issue and I believe she had committed suicide in the hospital that she was in.

And then the message went back, of course, to the family and the husband knew what she had wanted. They had been living out in the, the woods in, uh, Washington State, I believe. And her parents were in New Mexico and I think that she had been in New Mexico when, in this hospital. And so they were on this whole mission to rescue mommy was, was sort of the thing. And in the end, they finally have this like, beautiful scene of, they’re singing, sweet child of mine acoustically, and they’re all around her and they’re, and she’s, you know, dressed in linens and there’s flowers on her and they’re on the coast of Washington and they just burn her body.

And I’m like, that’s what I want. An outdoor, you know, I know that that’s a little bit farfetched, but that’s what I’m going for. I think that you can only do that in Colorado now. I, I, I don’t think you could do that pie you Yeah. That, that burning. But I know that, uh, many, uh, crematoriums will take and, you, you are able to have a little service there.

And so I think that, yeah, I did. I called the one that you recommended and they were really amazing. Like, so these are things that people should keep in mind. Like when you’re, if you’re, and, and I would love to hear you share other eco-friendly ways of, of, of burial, et cetera. But this is something that we’re looking at for my parents in particular, because I can take their ashes back to Wyoming more easily than I’d be able to bury their body here.

And there’s just no, we don’t have family that will really be left in California to continually go to a space to honor them. So cremating was something that we really wanted to walk through. But they did say, because it’s really important to me, like I’m so, you know, Traci knows me. I’m like, don’t do anything behind my back.

I wanna see how can we see the body, can we make sure that it’s the right body that you’re burning? And you know, like. Can we put flowers on them? Can we put a blanket on them? Can we oh yeah. You can do whatever you want. Everything can be there. You can have a little ceremony beforehand, you know, costs a little more.

It’s not that much more, but these are all options, right? Yeah. And I think that, before I actually, lemme go here before I actually, lemme make sure. Yeah. Before I actually became an End of Life Doula. Mm-hmm. I didn’t know all of these different offerings. There are so many ways that you can dispose of a body, and I hate to say dispose of a body, but let me say take care of your loved ones after they pass away.

Sure. You know, there’s cremation, I grew up knowing about cremation and burial and even green burial. But there’s acclamation, there is, which is better for the environment than cremation. There is, something called teramation, which is body composting com, you know, composting, which is really neat because they put you where, they put you in this like cylinder where they’re going to turn you, but you can take and visit your loved ones.

And it takes a number. It takes a couple, you know, it takes I think 40 days. And it’s really beautiful. So there are so many options. And then after, like after you’re cremated, you can be buried. There are certain forests that actually, companies buy up forest so that they can save them from, you know, being built on or being bought by by someone who’s going to take and do something with it.

Uh, but they do it to save the forest and then you could take, in some places you can be buried. Some places they will take the cremains and you could bury the cremains and it’s really wonderful. Sorry, are you there? Yeah. Sorry. I don’t, I Sorry about that. Go ahead. Yeah, and then there, yeah, there’s, you, you reef burials where you can be part of a reef and it’s really cool because like two weeks after you, uh, they put some of your creaming or they put your creaming into this, into the fake reef.

It’s concrete, but like two weeks after there are, or there’s already, uh, fish and wildlife that have made you their home. So it, it is really, really cool. And then space bit memorials being shot off in, into space. Like there are so many ways you can take a memorialize and honor your loved ones that are special to them would’ve been special to them also.

Yeah, exactly. And it’s so, good to just look at all of the options, I think and feel into what mentally, emotionally, spiritually feels right to you. And I think the conversation also though, has to be had with the loved ones that are behind because they’re, oftentimes there’s an element in the conversation about well, are you gonna come visit me?

Or are, you know, how, how will I be honored after I’m gone. And, I just think it’s so hugely important to me spiritually, our ancestors, our disconnect from honoring, just wisdom of our ancestors, whether or not they’re physically here or not on the spiritual plane. That conversation and continuing that conversation is important.

Whether or not you can be close to where you’re burying them or have something, or if there’s something on your altar that is in honor to them, because it may not be possible. But having that continued conversation and letting your loved ones know if that’s important to them, that, you know, that you wanna honor that.

And I just feel like they deserve that too. And I think there are two parts of that. Yeah. The, yeah, the part that you’re talking about is, the ritual and is also, part of building a different relationship with that person after they are physically not here, and that’s really important. It’s part of grieving also, which we do not talk about in our society.

Even though we’re all, if you love someone, that’s a price you’re going to pay. If you love someone, that is, you’re going to mourn and you’re going to grieve and it’s not going, you know, you don’t have only a year to grieve. That’s such one of the misconceptions is after a year, you’re okay and you will always grieve for, you know, grieve that loss.

And you will always hopefully have a relationship with that person even when they’re not physically here. It’s just different. I have a relationship with my cousin still. Her name’s Heather. And I will always have a relationship with her. Yeah. So there’s that, but there’s other part of that is the wisdom that the person has and is leaving you.

And you did a great job. You and your parents did a great job with doing the video, the life review video, which was so much fun to do and it was so wonderful. Yeah. So let’s talk about that. That’s in what you would term as a legacy choice or what do you generally call life review or legacy?

Uhhuh, yeah. Video. And I loved how we did it because we had your mom talk about her life up until when she met your father. Your father talk about his life until he met your mother. And then we got them together and they talked about their lives from that point on. And that knowledge. I think that so many people do not want to talk about their lives.

It like, my parents don’t wanna do it because I think it’s almost generational. And I talked to my parents, I said, listen, this is really important because when you pass away all that knowledge, we will have lost. We will have lost a part of ourselves. Exactly. And so that for people who are watching or listening who are older, who are like, oh, I really, you know, I’m not anything special.

There is such a loss. If three of my grandparents, we have no video of them. We don’t know much about their lives, and it is a loss. Now, my other, I have a grandmother who, when Orin and I got married, we did a video interview of her, of their love story, her and my grandfather, and we watch it, we laugh, and, that would’ve been lost.

Yeah, exactly. No, it was so great. And so Traci’s husband, Oren, also happens to be a videographer who does this work as well, among many other things that he does with his business. But it was so great because both of them came over to the house and my dad’s like, what are we gonna do and how are we gonna know what to do?

And Traci was amazing because she looked up so many great questions to ask. And like, my mom was fantastic because she suddenly remembered everything. Like everything. And so she was going off on all these little tangents, we had to reel her back in. But boy did, I mean, Orin distilled it down perfectly.

We still have a couple little things that we still are trying to get back to, but you know, to add certain pictures into the final video. But it’s just fantastic. It really is. It’s so special. It is. As and don’t you feel that is like, aren’t you almost relieved that’s because you’re not going to be like you, your children, your eventual grandchildren will have this information about who they, because this is part of who they are.

Yeah. And there was some choice, hilarious stories that were shared. So, you know. Your parents are great. I really love your parents. They’re amazing people.

Well, we are so grateful to have you, I’ll tell you that much. But that, you know, I do wanna get back to the grief part because that is another big piece of what you offer.

So what kinds of things, first of all, do you offer around grief or, what types of support do you feel like are needed for people that are missing?

Yeah, I almost wish quite honestly that I didn’t have to do grief work. I wish our society was so healthy. Mm-hmm. That people were comfortable with supporting people who are grieving. Mm-hmm. And hopefully one day I won’t be needed for that. But we live in a society where we’re really uncomfortable with talking about dying and grieving, because we almost feel like if I’m around it, it’s gonna happen to me.

Guess what? It’s gonna happen to you no matter what. So just being present, I’m not a therapist. I’m not there to lead a person who’s grieving. People who are grieving know where they want to be and where they need to go, or maybe they don’t, and that’s fine. I walk alongside the person, I am present.

So I do a lot of listening, a lot of talking. Every single person that I’ve done grief work with, every single one. And it’s about 80% of my business has asked, am I doing, you know, is this normal? Like people don’t feel like they’re normal. What’s wrong with me? I get a lot. What’s wrong with me? Why do I feel this way? After six months they’re still grieving. Why am I still grieving? I should be over it. No, it’s not something to get over your life has shifted. Yeah. And so just to be present and to be with that experience, to support the person Yeah. is really important. And for people who aren’t grief coaches, who aren’t grief specialists and don’t know how can I help the person?

Showing up for the person, showing up for your friend or your family member. You don’t need to know what to say, you’re just there to listen. Right. Even if you’re, oh, I am sorry I don’t, you know, I am sorry. Just saying I really. I feel I could feel what you’re feeling. I’m really sorry that you’re going through that.

That’s all you have to say. So be present. So I’m very present. I also do a lot of practical work. And what that looks like is when I’m over at a person’s home, because I will do grief work not only over Zoom or over the phone, but I will go, if a person lives close enough, I will go to their home and spend a few hours with them.

So it’s not just one hour. I’m there and back. As I said, I’m not a therapist. I will spend three, four hours with a person. I can help ’em clean out their loved one’s closet. There is sSA fog that happens. A mental fog. Some people call it widow brain when a person loses a spouse, where all of a sudden they’re finding it really difficult to pay bills, to focus on paying bills.

So I might go over and open up the mail with the person and make sure that the bills are being paid with them, make sure that they food in the home. Right. So it is, a whole host of not only the grief work, but the practical work. How are we going to make sure that you are still living even though you’re grieving?

Right. That’s so powerful and so important, and one of the things that that’s bringing me back to is that you were really offering that support to my dad when my mom was in the hospital. So Traci, you took him on a walk one time. You would just call and check in, and just, you know, just, you were just so he, you know, he knew he didn’t have to perform for you, you know, and he was a little overwhelmed by all of the people that were, all of the appointments and all of the caregivers and keeping track of her medication in the hospital and all of this.

And, so it was just nice to have someone that was just like, he didn’t have to, you already knew what was going on. Yeah. Yeah. And as I said, seeing your loved one die, not only is it the most painful thing. That you’ll go through, but it is also the scariest thing mm-hmm. That you’ll go through and you sh you know, having someone to talk to that you don’t have to try to be okay.

You do, it’s okay that you’re not okay. Yeah. Is really important. And your father was great because he just talked about what he was feeling. And Yeah. I remember one point he was like, I, he said something like, I’m really sorry for laying this all on you. And I was like, no, that’s, this should be normal.

We should be able to talk about this stuff and not feel guilty about talking about this stuff. Exactly. And people don’t realize that you’re going to grieve before the person passes away, when they’re sick because you’re grieving what you’re losing, what you are going to lose. Yeah. Yeah.

And it’s, I think also, when you’re a caregiver like that too, especially when you’re the one that, that you are feeling that everything, you’re the, the like linchpin that’s holding it all together. You’re feeling like it can’t happen on my watch. Like I need to be so vigilant that I’ve done everything that I can.

And that’s an incredible amount of stress to carry when you’re caring for somebody. Yeah. And I remember having this conversation with your father because he was really hesitant to get extra help and to help get a caretaker to come in. I mean, your mom could not get up. Right. I mean, she needed help going to the bathroom, to be bathed.

She needed, you know, and I, I remember specifically, and she ended up with an ostomy bag in the end. That was not like what she went in for. Yeah. But they discovered a blockage when she had been transferred out of the hospital and had recovered from her sepsis and was in a skilled nursing facility and they just, and then she had to be sent back to the hospital for this surgery.

And then she came back again to the skilled nursing facility, so it was like from December 18th or something, all the way till the end of January that she was there. Yeah. But, you’re right, she had all these things she needed. Right. And your father just did, he wanted to do it all because he felt that was his responsibility.

He loves your mom so much. And I remember when we’re walking, I turned to him, I said, listen, you can either be a caretaker or you could be a husband, right. You cannot be both. Mm-hmm. And your wife needs a husband more than a caretaker. You have the funds, hire a caretaker or I know that Medicare also helps with that.

So, and that I think is a huge thing for everyone to realize. And if you’re listening to this, remember when your loved one is dying, you could either be the caretaker or you could be the husband, the wife, the daughter. Mm-hmm. The friend. You cannot be both. I know. And we were so fortunate that right before all of this happened, my mom was still was at that time having trouble and needed help in the house.

And so we had my mom, we had a neighbor of ours had mentioned that these, the best caretakers were the Tongans. That the Tongan women were the best, and that we should find someone from Tonga that this was gonna be the best thing. So my mom, I don’t know what she searched up like, it was like care.com, and somehow she found one woman that was actually Fijian, but she happened to have a Tongan housemate that had the schedule that would fit. So we’ve been graced with Tasha and then her cousin Noah, that is Fijian. She’s Fijian, Tongan, that are living with my parents now and taking care. And they do. I mean, that’s like such a beautiful part of their community that I think would be, we would be so wise to embrace in our own community, which is this acceptance of death and caring for our elders, you know, our loved ones as their aging.

They have, but they have no problem with that. And like you said, I mean, I feel like we’ve, our family was in a slightly tough position. One is my dad. You know, this was too much for him, but I’m out of state and I’m an only child. There’s not, I could not, I have three young adult kids.

I’m just barely coming out of the woods from all that. So it’s like not great, as far as I can’t just stop everything. I’m also a wife, you know, myself. So, and support my husband who’s got a very, very challenging medical practice in Chinese medicine, as you know. But in any case, they, we were so fortunate that they were lined up and they started to come in. My dad started to allow them to come in and help and stay there at the nighttime, at the hospitals or at the skilled nursing facilities. And then gradually, obviously you then you and I, the another piece that you were there for was when my mom was in the skilled nursing facility and I was like, she, they, she, her weight had dropped incredibly.

They were not attending to her well. I was pissed. I was pissed off about it. And I could see that she was rapidly turning into what I refer to as a billable item, you know? Yep. And that, that it was just like, what medication can we give her? And there were things they were given her without our approval, that she has a chronic, uh, uh, uh, yeah, chronic disease called leukocytoclastic vasculitis.

And so there are certain medications that are sort of on a list that are. We, we really try to stay away from them because they can make it worse. And so anyway, Traci really helped. Traci would get on the phone with me and we would have these conversations and I would tell her what was going on and you were just so helpful to direct me.

You need to talk to this person. You need to talk to this person. You need to call a meeting for these people and have that group conversation. And even things like, you helped me make sure that the house was in good order so that they had no excuse. They couldn’t keep her there anymore. They had to, they, you know, I mean, it would be medical kidnapping if they did but we basically gave them the ultimatum and was like, you know. But you helped me kind of point me in the direction for a hospital bed for us to keep at the house and rent.

And, remember the nursing network that you put me in touch with as well? I think. Thank you. I think that, and I hate saying this because I hate negative talk with any part of our hospital community because they do such good work, but I have told my husband even, do not put me in a skilled nursing facility, do not leave me there.

And it’s because they have such staffing problems right now because of, you know, what happened with Covid? A lot of people quit. They don’t have the time. And so every single time I’ve seen clients in skilled nursing facilities, it’s, they live there without dignity. They, are put in diapers because they’re seen as, you know.

Risk, you know, they don’t wanna risk the person falling and a whole other host of things. And it’s just a really, I would not want to be in a skilled nursing facility for very long. I would insist on being at home and having, you know, occupational therapists or physical therapists come in and have some people come in to help take care of me.

Of course, I say that from the view of good fortune of, of able to, you know, I have a long-term health insurance. Mm-hmm. Or long-term care insurance. So I’ve been very lucky that I can do that. I know not everyone can do that, but as much as you can, as quickly as you can get out of those places.

For your health. Yeah. One of the big. Things that I encourage people within the Yin-care® podcast is, as the medical system that we have known is falling in on itself in many ways, it’s important to create a life and a health creation lifestyle that we are not dependent on it. And so learning to, whatever your inspiration is, basically in from any of the podcasts or anything that we offer Yin-care® or anything outside of Yin-care®, whatever your next best love and joy in health improvement for yourself is, go for it.

Any baby step in that direction that starts to empower you is gonna bring you into greater health. Like you look three months down the road, six months down the road. I don’t know. You’re changing one thing about your diet, one thing about your lifestyle. You’re getting more sleep.

Whatever you’ve, you’re dealing with your family issue around their death. Like, whatever it is that you have to do. It’s important to keep yourself out of that medical system. And like you said, there’s good people that are now part of what’s, sadly, a bad system. It just is a bad system.

I mean, I, I know that everybody says there, we like to give these caveats. Well, there’s certain pieces that are so good. Well, of course there are gems, there are gems that we can salvage from within it. But the whole system itself is just, there’s, there’s just a lot of things that have to, I don’t know how it can be fixed per se.

And so the most important thing we can do is to take care of ourselves and keep ourselves out of it. Right? Yeah. And when you are in it, realize that it is a system. Even hospice. Hospice is, most hospice. There are, I think there’s only like 17% of hospices are nonprofit in the US but then, so most of them are for profit and with that and then they have Medicare rules.

And they have to see a certain number of people. So that’s why a lot of the nurses, there are a lot of hospice nurses who are becoming Death Doulas now because they want to be able to spend time with those that they help. And Death Doulas are non-medical. So even if there is a hospice nurse, they are not doing the nurses’ jobs. Mm-hmm. For many, many reasons why. And we, we won’t because of time, we won’t go into that, but recognize that people are there if it’s not nonprofit to make money. Mm-hmm. And so plan around that. And it is not the fault of the hospice nurse or the chaplain or the social worker because every single time I talk to people, they want to spend more time with their clients.

With the patients. It is our system that is the issue. Right? Exactly. Exactly. Oh, that was so, so. Well, I, I love that we brought that into the conversation there. That was one piece that was really important to me, so I’m glad that got expressed. I just have a few, I know we’re, we’ve been going for a while, but I have a few more questions for you if, if that’s okay. Please.

I wanted to, let’s see. Well, yeah, how I, well, okay. Just to piggyback on that, one thing that I did write down was just wanted to remind people that you’re not beholden to the medical system as far as your choices like there. And that’s one of the things that Traci really helped me create was, okay, we can rent a hospital bed for at the house and there were certain ways that we could get, I think, it paid for possibly, but there were certain, at a certain point it was like, in order to get that in the time that we needed it and what we were gonna save by having it covered just didn’t make sense. So we just rented it.

And there are nurses that you can pay out of your pocket to come to your house, like actual licensed nurses that are part of a network that will come and they can check on you. And so you don’t even though there may be certain things that are covered, the other thing we’ve looked at is physical therapy for my mom, having someone come to the house that, that, you know, they, they, ’cause they go in and out of covering things.

So when it’s not covered you can seek out other options, wouldn’t you say? Yes you can. And again, I say this from a point of, I know I’m lucky. I’m no most, but most people won’t be able to afford that. Can’t. And so what do they do? And my advice is go online, do the research, and insist you have to be your own best advocate.

And yes, you have to be pushy. You have to be pushy. And I’d even put a step further. And if you’re in the same situation where you want home care, you want how, you know you want people to be at home, the doctors, the nurses, they aren’t your enemies. You are, make them part of your team. They want to see your mother, your father, your person, healthy also.

And so have those discussions and push, push, push. You have to be what people would consider pushy. Because with your own healthcare, no one is going to be your own best advocate. Well, yeah. And sometimes like my mom will present as like. You wouldn’t guess by the way she’s talking to everybody, that there are as many challenges going on and with all of the online, like communications between the doctors.

It’s like the doctors have one picture of what’s going on and we’re like, let me explain here. Your mom is so funny. ’cause she’s like, and I think most people do that. I know that when I go to the doctors, everything is roses. Everything is wonderful. Yeah. And I don’t know why we do that, but we gotta get over ourselves.

That’s why the doctors are there. Well, I don’t think she’s trying to hide anything. I just think she doesn’t always realize how challenged the situation is for everybody else. That’s like helping make it easy for her, you know? And, and I love my mom and I’m just so grateful that she was able to get well and all of that kind of stuff.

But, and that she’s, she’s, she’s still got some life in her for thank goodness. She has a lot of life in her. Exactly. There is lots of life in there. Okay. So, how do you support individuals with differing beliefs and no spiritual background? And you’re the perfect for per, per perfect person for this because, I think Orin has different beliefs, right? Because you shared that. Yes. Yes. Orin is, an, I would say an agnostic atheist. Mm-hmm. I am a very spiritual person. Both of us are Jewish. We, we identify as culturally Jewish. Mm-hmm. And we actually met in synagogue. Mm-hmm. But I, my my belief is much more spiritual. Mm-hmm. It isn’t, I wouldn’t consider religious, I’m a religious Jew anymore.

But I am very spiritual. I meditate every morning. I have discussions with, and I’m gonna sound very woo woo. No, this is the place to do it, so don’t worry. Yeah. With the universe. I believe in having those discussions. When I meditate, I really listen. Sorry, I missed that. You have discussions with who?

With what or what? With the universe? With my spirit also, what’s in, you know, but I, when I’m meditating, I’m listening, I’m listening, for whatever comes. So I, we’re very different. And that’s okay. I mean, I’m fine with that. What works for me is not gonna work for everyone. And that’s when I work with people and they are very religious, or they are, that’s the comfort that’s what they have to comfort them.

That is their belief. They should have that. I think that is a gift. Mm-hmm. For that person. And I don’t care if you are a Catholic, a Jew, a Muslim, a Satanist, I do not. You know that if you take comfort in it, it that is what you should have. That is, and it’s something beautiful. It’s a gift, as I said. We’re all here, we’re all part of that universal continuum to move the universe in its grand evolution forward.

So it’s part, all welcomed, all celebrated. Even though it can make challenges for us at different times, you know? Yeah. Especially when you’re providing support for somebody at the end of their life and that’s their way out. They need to feel that, that, I just love your business name Comforting Closure.

Yeah. I, thank you. There’s an interesting story about that name, but, I think that I’ve been fortunate to live and to, I grew up in the Chicagoland area, and then moving to California in the Bay Area. We have a lot of diversity. So I’ve been lucky to be exposed to a lot and, to, yeah. I’ve, I’ve been lucky to be exposed, uh, to a lot.

And, and when I look at a person, I don’t judge them by their ethnicity or their religion. It’s really their soul. Yeah. That I look at. Right. Yeah. That’s so cool. Yeah. And Comforting Closure. I love that you love that name. I, I went back and forth because closure is a really bad word to the death care.

Is it? And grief care, community closure. No one likes closure. They, they do. You know, I’ve people, it’s really offends, I think some people in the grief care community, but I really thought about my cousin and did, do I have closure for her death? And yes, ’cause I’ve accepted that she did die, that she’s not returning and that my relationship with her is still ongoing, but has changed.

And that to me is closure for me. So it doesn’t mean I’m not grieving, it doesn’t mean that I’m not sad about her dying. Exactly. Absolutely. Yeah. It’s just, I love the word. I, it, it feels so cozy to me, comforting, you know? Yeah. So to have those two words together is really, I just think that’s, it’s very special.

So you picked a great name.

Okay. So, and what is one piece of advice you would give someone facing their own mortality or loss of a loved one? Okay. This is gonna sound crazy guys. Are you ready for this? I would say embrace it. Really go in deep and embrace it. This could be a real gift to you, and I hate saying it.

People are going to be like, my loved one died. That is not a gift. But it can be, it can be something that, that helps you grow that. Yeah. I don’t even know how to explain it. It just, you have no choice, right? You can’t ignore it. You cannot ignore it. So embrace it. Go deep into it and journey through it.

That is the only way you’re coming out on the other side of it. And there is, there’s so much, you know, so much I would say culturally right now. And I mean, just by the word like that, people like to use, that triggered me, you know, I’m triggered by that or whatever. And to me, it’s funny because I joke that like I’m triggered by the word triggered because, for you and I, we’re the same age, I think, or close.

Very close, yeah. Within a couple years of each other. Right. And we didn’t have that word to fall back on. It was just life. If something happened and it was upsetting, you actually didn’t have that word to just say that triggered me and then walk away from it. It was like, that happened to me. Now I have to deal with the repercussions of it.

And so I really feel like, divorce, I went through divorce, and then death is another one. As far as like you have to go through that. I have the needle and you have to, you just have to create, if we can create a community support or create the circumstances in which we go through this as gracefully as possible, we have all of the potential to be stronger and move forward in ways that we can’t even imagine right now.

Yep. What that’s gonna be like. And also I would say, I love that you mentioned grace. Give yourself grace. It is okay to be triggered because this is all so hard. It is so traumatic. It is so traumatic. And I. I think we don’t give ourselves enough grace, and that has more to do with our society saying, just get over it.

Mm-hmm. Don’t feel a need to get over it. Be okay talking about it. Find good peer support. There are a lot of good peer support groups out there. You are not alone. Everyone has either gone through it, is going through it or will go through it. This is a human condition. Um mm-hmm. So embrace it. You have no choice.

I love it. That’s great. That’s fantastic. Thank you for sharing that. And then if you could change one thing about how society approaches death and dying, what would it be? Embrace it. No. I think that, that’s true. Yeah. But I think also, don’t be afraid to talk about, we have to start talking about it.

I always say I, I’m here to help normalize this conversation around aging, death and grief. My podcast is about aging, death and grief. Not just about death and grief, but aging too, because we don’t like talking about that either. In America. Talk about it, be accepting of it. Force those conversations.

I remember with the aging when I turned 50 and I was at work and I was, I love being in my fifties. I’m proud of where I am. And I remember telling a director that I’m turning 50, and his reaction was, you don’t say that. You don’t tell anyone you’re turning 50. And my reply was, no, that’s their problem.

I’m here to break that stereotype, that being 50 and over, that we’re useless, that we’re not as good workers, that we’re getting old. That’s your stereotype. That’s insane. That is insane. That’s not what I would ever, ever, ever say, but yes. So don’t be afraid to talk about it.

We need to talk about it. We need to normalize the conversations, and that’s what I really wish we would do. I wish that our television shows and our movies were more realistic also. Okay. So that, as you were saying that, and you were talking about aging, it did spur, I know it’s a little bit of a sidestep, but it did remind me when my mom was still in the hospital and we weren’t really sure if the caregiver situation would work out.

You helped line up that day. The couple days that we went to all of the assisted living facilities, we went to like eight or something. Yes, yes. It was, oh my God. We started, I think with 15, and then we narrowed it down because we went through what really was a priority and what, you know, what was important.

Right. And then yeah, we, yeah, a whirlwind. Oh my God. It was insane. It was like, I don’t if I, anyway, there, I do wanna just mention that as a side note to people that there are some really amazing assisted living facilities and there are some really crappy ones as well. So you have to do your homework, you have to like also be really in touch with your own intuition around what feels right, because there is a lot of bells and whistles that are thrown at you that things are great. And there’s actually, we met a woman on the tour whose mom was at one of the facilities and that you ended up interviewing on your podcast who had a horrendous number of things that happened, like to her mom at a variety of different assisted living facilities that she had to pull her out of one and put her in another.

And so you have to, you don’t get to just put your parents away somewhere. And we need to build a community where it’s not an, frankly, I don’t know if our medical system will hold supporting the financing of even some of these places that have developed around that just.

I don’t know. I just have some concerns going forward, you know, so we’re gonna have to be creative and think outside the box and, and, and figure out ways to care for them. But that is about respecting the aging process and, yeah. Yeah, I agree. And then as far as you said, you, the other thing that it made me think of was, and I can’t remember the name of the movie or the show that’s on Netflix right now.

I know you have, I know somebody in your community had to mention it to you. It’s with the guy, the actor from Cheers that is living Ted Dansen, yes. I forget the name of it. Also. He’s living in, or he’s living on his own. His wife has passed and he’s bored. Oh yeah. And he becomes like a P.I. He works for a P.I.

Yeah. He becomes a P.I in, in a, an assisted living facility. Some of them are, some of them that we met, they were like that. Some of the, it was just like that. It was now. And there are the majority of places that we visited I remember were so, like, I wanted to move in. Uhhuh. Yeah. You know, and, but there are some that you go to die.

I hate, I hate to say that, that you feel like we, we both to die. We know which one we both know which one we’re Yes, yes, yes. We won’t name names here, but it was, it was sad. The majority of them though, there was only one that was really bad, but the majority of them were, really good. If you can sit for a meal because food is really important to most people. Yes. That’s what we did. We ate, we had two lunches. Yeah. One that we never wish to remember.

Uh, uh, uh, but it was really, it was really very eye-opening when you start to do that with your parents. And I would suggest that you start to look at these places long before you need to be in one. Yeah. Just to know for two reasons. And I remember talking to your father about it, because your father didn’t want to go visit, didn’t want to have anything to do with any of these, with this plan.

And I said. You’re doing this for two reasons. One, so you’re prepared, but the more important reason is so that you know what’s out there. So you’re not afraid when you know what’s out there, you can make a good decision. Yeah, exactly. And there were ended that ended up being like three that I felt really quite comfortable with.

One of them my dad’s cousin moved into recently, which is hilarious. But, but I don’t think it’s the right fit for my parents together right now since they can make this work for them at home. And they have such a lovely place that’s all on a single level and so easy. And we’ve sort of created a, financially. It was de it was cheaper for sure, but can they, you know, the ques, you do have to start to think about how, how sustainable are these things? So you have to get really realistic about a lot of that stuff. Yeah. And a lot of times it is cheaper to stay at home, but you do need to fix the home. You do need to be sure to bring in people to help you.

One of the biggest advantages to being in an assisted living facility is the community. Yeah. People don’t realize how important community is as you get older. It is one of the factors to keeping yourself healthy. Mm-hmm. Having a social life, having friends is just as important as what you eat and how you exercise.

It is one of those things that people do not realize can make or break your health. Exactly. Yeah. And we saw some very vibrant communities with people that were loving their experience. Yeah. So, and that’s why I think a lot of people still go to church. Mm-hmm. Older people go to church.

It is a sense of community. I don’t care where you get your community, just get a community. Yeah. Have your, find your tribe. And for my parents, ironically there was this, we didn’t really realize that Tasha had a young child at the time he was living in Fiji, but he got brought back to the US and it has been this like gift to my mom and my dad like to have this young one.

He’s not there all the time, but he’s four, three or four. I think he’s four years old now, three or four. And he, is just a gem. He brings this vitality to the house that you don’t get. So there’s this intergenerational living that’s going on. And we actually lived with my parents during the, during COVID.

It was me and my and Carly and my middle son Maury, and they were in high school. So we’re, my parents are used to having intergenerational group of people in the house. So it wasn’t, as much as it’s hard to have people in your space, there’s something really magical about creating that continu you know?

Yeah. There, there is. And I think we’ve lost a lot of that intergenerational, support. I mean, we’ve really gone away from it with people moving outta state or even getting so busy, so too busy. You know, two people working in, in, in the household. Totally, totally. Okay, last question for you. You’ve been so amazing.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for being generous with your time. I’m really grateful. I think people are gonna really get a lot out of this, but what have you learned from working with people at the end of life that has influenced how you live your own life?

Being very present through everything. Even the uncomfortable stuff. Even the painful stuff being really present because I don’t know if it’s going to be there tomorrow. It’s also, my husband and I had a great relationship beforehand. We’ve been married now 20 years. Wow. It is. But when I am spending time with my husband, he, it used to be we would do something together and he was, we’d be, he’d be on the side, I’d be focusing on what I’m doing.

He’d be there along for the ride, where now it is, he is front and center and whatever we’re doing, we’re just doing, it’s okay, whatever. But really making him my focus versus we’re going to do something, that’s my focus. And he is over here, we’re doing it together. Mm-hmm. So it’s being very, very present and knowing what’s important.

My values have completely changed since I started this work. And how it’s changed really is. I come from a tech background. So I was making good money. Not that I’m not making money now, because I am, I mean, I’m able to support myself with what I do. But retail therapy is not a thing for me.

I think it is for so many people. And when you’re making lots of money, I think my values just have changed so much that the things I appreciate aren’t, you know, physical anymore. They’re not, it’s not about things. Yeah. That’s amazing. That’s, yeah. You’re whole value system shifts when you go through really appreciating the depth that life has to offer, you know? Yeah. It’s like I know my, you know, one of the things that we, that we have, that I would say is a big shift. Not huge. I’ve cooked a lot, but like that we have very diet, I have a lot of dietary restrictions that we, I don’t consider them restrictions. I’ve had lunch with you.

I know. Yeah. They make me, they, I feel good. Right. And that’s really important to me. It’s, huge part, but I don’t go out to eat and we don’t eat out ever. We, but then that’s a thing. Like we’re always in the kitchen together. We’re always doing those things together. We always, we love cooking and I mean, everyone in the family and people heard, and you’ll, you can listen if you want, but I interviewed Carly, she does her own cooking and stuff like that.

And, and both of my ki I’m just so grateful that everybody knows how to cook. But, it also. It is, it cuts down on the finances as far as you know, it’s so, I can’t even believe, like sometimes I look at how much money people pay to go out as often as they do. And it’s a lot.

So you don’t necessarily need to do those things to really have a deeply fulfilling life is what I’m coming back to. And it’s, yeah, really special. Oh my gosh. Traci, thank you so much for being here today on the podcast. I’m so grateful. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me and for giving me your gift of time.

I appreciate it. Please, my pleasure. And, we, you know, we probably have more to talk about, so we may be bringing you back again. I hope that’s acceptable to you. I’d love it. I’d love to be here on again, I. Awesome. Well, let’s see. So just, I would like to leave everybody, just hang tight for just a minute for me, Traci.

Okay. Alright everybody, thank you so much for being here and listening to this conversation I had with Traci Areli. Oh wait, I totally forgot I’m bringing you back because I want people to see how to get in touch with you. What was that? Oh yes, please go to my website. Oh my God, we were so distracted. So we’ve got a couple things.

We’ve got Traci’s website and then, she’s on YouTube, Facebook, TikTok and Instagram. All @ Comforting Closure. So be sure to go to her website and check it out. I’m gonna see if I can, let’s see if I can do this quickly. ’cause my, and if you could listen to my podcast, there’s a lot of, it’s very diverse.

Very diverse, and it’s called Comforting Closure Conversations with the Death Doula. And it’s on all the major platforms and on YouTube. I love that. Yeah. Let me just show people really quick ’cause I did have, well here’s the YouTube channel, so you can see if you go and she’s just got, if you click over to videos, you can see the, these are the ones that are her conversation for with about her advanced healthcare directive.

There’s two parts to it with her husband, which is just lovely. And, I’ve, you can see the ones that I’ve listened to more recently, but there’s, down here you have your, meditation. I. I just wanted to point, I’m wondering where that is. Maybe it’s, I didn’t, it was one of the first ones, because I did not have, anyway, I’ll see if I can link it in the show notes so that people can see it and get to it easily.

But this is a, there’s so many things that she’s gone through, you guys, so definitely take a look at her podcast. And then I wanted to also show everybody your website. So let me just pop over there. And this is her website and she offers, this is what I did, was their complimentary discovery call. And you can just check out the different services that she’s got and see if something like what Traci has is a good fit for you.

And she can certainly refer you to other people if she’s not a good fit and you’re looking for something else. Right. Yep. Is there anything in particular you feel like you would like people to know about that you offer that we didn’t cover? I think we did a really good, a really good review of what I offer.

I think people got a feel for me, but I’d like to say that you are never too young or healthy to start putting your advanced directive together and start having those conversations. If you do your advanced directive, it is not about filling out a piece of paper. It is really about having those conversations and I highly recommend hiring someone to guide you through that.

And you know, as an example, a good facilitator will take and help you find the right healthcare proxies, but then they’ll bring those proxies in, have that discussion, and then bring your family members in to have that discussion. It is so important to do that. Yeah. So you’re never too young or healthy to do that.

Do that now ’cause you don’t know what tomorrow will bring. No. And the woman that you inter that interviewed you guys basically. That was on your podcast, but she was doing the advanced healthcare directive interview. She, you know, she was saying something like, she recommends people do it every year on their birthday as a birthday present to themselves.

And I thought that was really so cool because it’s a reminder of the continuum of life, right? Of birth and death. Birth and death. And that’s what I was gonna actually leave people with was really, there’s one, I mean, which Traci has said on here, but I’ll say it in my own way, which is, there’s one thing that you are guaranteed when you come here and that is that you’re gonna die.

That’s it. That’s the only guarantee you get. So embrace, like Traci was saying, embrace it and let’s make it a beautiful one. As much as we make a birth, we talk so much about making birth beautiful and powerful and transformative. Death can be that same thing. So, yeah.

Well, again, thank you for having me on and everyone who’s listening to this, thank you so much for taking the time and listening. Absolutely. All right. Hang on one second, Traci. All right, everybody. Thank you again. Now, we’ll finally close. Thank you so much for listening to the Yin-care® podcast today. And until next time, honor yourself, celebrate your strength and empower your transformation.